Diskusia:Samuil

Disputed neutrality

I'm going to put a POV tag. The reasons are these from Bronto's personal discussion (in italic):

Excuse me, but you're not right about Samuel's realm

Hi! Some of the centers of Samuel's realm are in contemporary Greece (including Samuel's grave in his patriarchal basilica on Saint Achilles island!) and probably Bulgaria - there is a dispute about the name of one of his earlier capitals, which could be interpreted as Vidin (in Bulgaria) or Voden (present day Edessa in Greece). It is pretty obvious that the territory of contemporary Republic of Macedonia isn't the only center of Samuel's realm, therefore I tried to make internal link to the article about the larger geographical region of Macedonia. I don't understand why you are treating these academic theories as POV-pushing. Greetings, Historian 16:30, 6. august 2009 (UTC)

The text does not mention any "centers", but the (geographic) center. Secondly, I DO understand what you are trying to accomplish here, I also DO understand, why you are trying to ignore any other sources but heavily cite some 100 years old text that you like (and that actually does not prove anything in this context) and I also understand why you try to replace a neutral text by the ambigous word "Bulgarian" without any explanation - your only point is to have the word Bulgarian in the text at any price, what ever the word might mean. And while I understand your motives, this wikipedia - unlike many other wikipedias - has NPOV as its supreme principle and the current version is perfectly neutral. Greetings. Bronto 00:19, 7. august 2009 (UTC)

Nope. The geographic center of Samuel's state lies somewhere to the north of contemporary Republic of Macedonia:

Map of Bulgaria in its largest extension during Samuel's reign circa 1000.

By the way, you've erased not only one old, but also one contemporary academic source about the Bulgarian character of Samuel's realm: Ulf Brunnbauer, DREVNA NACIONALNOST I VJEKOVNA BORBA ZA DRŽAVNOST: HISTORIOGRAFSKI MITOVI U REPUBLICI MAKEDONIJI (BJRM), Zbornik radova "Historijski mitovi na Balkanu", Sarajevo, 2003 (in Bosnian). Is this your kind of NPOV?! Excuse me, but I can't accept your rude manners and inexact arguments. Historian 13:01, 7. august 2009 (UTC)

P. s. I didn't erase "neutral text", I erased following definition: "macedonsky cár". It had no sources at all. In fact I restored your own definition from 20. október 2006, see. Historian 13:06, 7. august 2009 (UTC)

No you have done this: http://sk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samuil&diff=2430652&oldid=2430611. Secondly, there are plenty of maps in the internet and even your map only proves the statement (the center is not one single point and the term does not refer to the "greatest extent", if you want to be so "precise", an example: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:SeEuropeBury1903XXXV.jpg). Thirdly, I am not interested in your "academic source", when there are x other "academic sources" claiming something else (you can use other wikipedias for on overview of those alternative claims, I hope you are able to click there). Fourthly, your "sources" are in no contradiction to what you have deleted and prove absolutely nothing of what you have tried to add originally; this can either be a lack of capacity on your part or a primitive attempt to deceive everybody (you can choose) by seemingly citing something. And you do know this very well, do not play this typical shell game with me. Actually, we could go further in the text and could elaborate on the probable (non-Bulgarian) ethnicity of the inhabitants of the territory etc, which I was trying to avoid. This discussion is over. Bronto 13:16, 7. august 2009 (UTC)

Exactly! This is not erasion of anything, but only addition of three sources, two academic publications and one historical record. By the way, on your map Republic of Macedonia lies in the southern half of Samuel's state. Is this a proper geographic center? Funny. Historian 13:22, 7. august 2009 (UTC)

My last comment: Firstly, you are plainly lying about what you have deleted and keep deleting and you are lying about the content of a map. Secondly, I have explained the rest above, read carefully. Bronto 23:17, 7. august 2009 (UTC)

It is obvious that the geographic center of Samuel's state lies to the north of contemporary Republic of Macedonia (because its northern borders were somewehere in Hungary or Voivodina, if not even farther in Transylvania!), while its political centers were in Greece and may be Bulgaria as well. Greetings, Historian 11:28, 8. august 2009 (UTC)

P. s. The exact distances (according to the historical map suggested by you) are: from the southern border of Voivodina to the northern border of Republic of Macedonia 290 km and from the northern border of Republic of Macedonia to the line of Larissa in central Greece 315 km. Even on your map the geographic center of Samuel's state lies roughly on the northern border of Republic of Macedonia, while according to the map of its largest extension it is far to the north... Sorry. I've added two contemporary academic sources about the Samuel's state as the final period of the First Bulgarian Empire. Please don't mix this with the question of the ethnic structure of Samuel's realm, it is pretty obvious that within its borders there were many different elements, Greeks, Vlachs, Serbians, Albanians and so on... If there are other theories - explain them with other sources, but please don't delete these. In fact they are not in conflict with your position. Historian 12:07, 8. august 2009 (UTC)

You've erased the sources again. You are a vandal, who systematically violates the rules of Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Citing sources. This is my last message to you. Farewell. Historian 12:50, 8. august 2009 (UTC)

Greetings, Historian 12:58, 8. august 2009 (UTC)

Endless blind reverts... I doubt this is the proper way to resolve disputes in Wikipedia. Historian 13:33, 8. august 2009 (UTC)

Where is the problem according to me:

1. On October 20 2006 Bronto created this formulation: "Samuil alebo zriedkavo Samuel či Samoil (po bulharsky: Самуил) (cca. *958 - 6. október 1014) bol v rokoch 997 až 1014 bulharský cár (v rokoch 976 - 997 spolu s Romanom)."

2. It lasted until 13 June 2009, when MacedonianBoy changed it to "Samuil alebo zriedkavo Samuel či Samoil (Самoил) (cca. *958 - 6. október 1014) bol v rokoch 997 až 1014 macedonsky cár (v rokoch 976 - 997 spolu s Romanom)." without any source or explanation, but simply labelled Bronto's definition as POV.

3. On 6 August 2009 I restored Bronto's version, adding three sources, two academic researches (one older British and one contemporary German) and one historical record (Serbian).

4. Immediately Bronto started to erase all sources and changed his own definition to "Samuil alebo zriedkavo Samuel či Samoil (po bulharsky: Самуил) (cca. *958 - 6. október 1014) bol v rokoch 997 až 1014 (v rokoch 976 - 997 spolu s Romanom) cár prvej bulharskej ríše, ktorej centrum tvorilo dnešné Macedónsko."

5. I couldn't agree with this position and most of all with the persistent removal of all academic sources. The result was this dispute about the centers (political and/or geographical) of the Samuel's state and Bronto's accusations of nationalist POV-pushing and lies...

Historian 13:55, 8. august 2009 (UTC)

Another revert of POV tag without discussion and consensus... Vandalism. Historian 14:01, 10. august 2009 (UTC)

My proposal for consensus is: "... Tsar of the First Bulgarian Empire (Срђан Пириватрић, "Самуилова држава. Обим и карактер", Византолошки институт Српске академије науке и уметности, посебна издања књига 21, Београд, 1997, 133-144. Ulf Brunnbauer, "Drevna Nacionalnost I Vjekovna Borba Za Državnost: Historiografski Mitovi U Republici Makedoniji (Bjrm)", Zbornik radova "Historijski mitovi na Balkanu", Institut za istoriju Sarajevo, 2003, 300-302.), whose main political centers were in the geographic region of Macedonia". Where is the difference - addition of two contemporary academic sources plus "main political centers" instead of "[geographic] center" (incorrect) and "geographic region of Macedonia" instead of "[contemporary Republic of] Macedonia" (incorrect as well). I hope that this dispute could be resolved without further edit warring. Greetings, Historian 14:18, 10. august 2009 (UTC)

Is this an example of Wikipédia:Predpokladajte dobré úmysly attitude: "už by ho niekto mohol zablokovať blbec spojený s nacionalistom"? Historian 18:30, 15. august 2009 (UTC)

Another blind revert. Historian 16:52, 16. august 2009 (UTC)

Endless blind revert war. Historian 21:17, 17. august 2009 (UTC)

He did it again. Historian 00:21, 18. august 2009 (UTC)

And again... Bronto is stubborn vandal without any dignity and historical knowledge. Historian 16:07, 26. august 2009 (UTC)